SS » 10-June-2006 11:38am

Very very cheap price for such a rarity. As for the "classical Mongol character" on the bottom it`s strange for me. As I understand, before creating of Phags-ba script, Mongols does not had their own writing and they used Uighur script. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Nijigaoka » 10-June-2006 11:50am

I'm really confused because in my sources (from chinese books) there's a differend explanation on the reading > above the hole "ZHI" in Mongol, right "TONG" in Uigure, below "YUAN" in Liao and left "BAO" in Xixia. The coin above was offered in China and they should know, so why is there a differend reading ? Were the scholars wrong before ?

ONLY LINDA » 10-June-2006 12:00pm

Dear SS,
This is not Uighur, this is Arabic. The above part only is decorates!The under part is an Arabic-tong. Chinese call chaghatayid character .

SS » 10-June-2006 12:02pm

Dear ONLY LINDA, thanks, but I am talking about bottom character.

ONLY LINDA » 10-June-2006 12:03pm

Dear Nijigaoka,

below is old tibetan character- Zhi. Chinese call TuBo character.(吐蕃文）

charm » 10-June-2006 1:01pm

The classical Mongol script was developed from the so named old Uyghur script. It was adopted by Mongols during the life of Chinghiz-khan and with some differences in epigraphics and sounds was used during a centuries. So "old Uyghur" and "old Mongol" scripts are almost synonims. Phags-pa was introduced later, in 1269 A.D.

The right character is written in Arabic script that was used by Uyghurs starting from 16th (or earlier ?) Century; in China it is traditionally named Chaghatayid script.

Bottom character doesn't have nothing common with Liao script. Old Mongol for it looks very doubtful for me too, I prefer the version of Tibetan script, but currently can't find good coincidence for it in the Tibetan alphabet.

Nijigaoka » 10-June-2006 1:52pm

Thanks all for clearing my confusion

Nijigaoka » 10-June-2006 1:56pm

What's to see on reverse ? Design or inscription ?

SS » 10-June-2006 2:41pm

Lot description tells us : Double Phoenix.

Nijigaoka » 10-June-2006 2:48pm

Dear SS, thank you. Does it mean no coin but charm ?

SS » 10-June-2006 3:49pm

Anyway, not the coin for circulation. I would prefer to say : presentation or commemorative coin.

Nijigaoka » 10-June-2006 8:32pm

Dear SS, thanks again. Is this the chinese term > 記埝貨幣 ?

BabelStone » 10-June-2006 9:17pm

Coins with the same 4-script inscription but with ZHI YUAN TONG BAO on the other side are more common (see http://main.kaiyuanquanshe.com/bbs/uploadImages/200352317321...).

I don't think anyone seems to know what script the bottom character is. Some say Mongolian, some say Phags-pa, some say Tibetan; but I can't read it as any of these.

The left character looks like Tangut, but I can't find an exact match for it in Li Fanwen's Tangut Dictionary.

charm » 10-June-2006 9:28pm

Dear BabelStone, thank you for your comment! The above link doesn't work.

SS » 10-June-2006 10:47pm

Zhi Yuan Tong Bao are more common ?? It`s a very good joke... I think "more common" is not a proper word for the coin of which no more than 3 specimens are known to exist ( one of them is depicted on the link you`ve sent ). At least I know about only 1 exemplair which is supposed to be genuine.

SS » 10-June-2006 10:57pm

Dear Nijigaoka, sorry I do not know.

BabelStone » 10-June-2006 11:21pm

OK, "common" is perhaps the wrong word. What I meant is that the ZHI YUAN TONG BAO variety is in all the books, and so is more well known than this coin which apparently has a double phoenix on the reverse, which I have not seen before.

charm » 10-June-2006 11:38pm

The link, provided by BabelStone, works not always in a proper way, but now I see that we already have this coin in the database - http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=24322

Tony Merson » 11-June-2006 7:59am

Zeno 24322 is listed in Hua (new edition page 930 at 30,000 Yuan - I am not able to read his description, especially the reverse characters) under Zhi Yuan TB reign title dated to 1335-1340.
So why is the coin here read as Zhi Zhi and dated to 1321-23, please?

Dear SS, are you proposing a new class of commemorative or presentation coins between circulating coins and charms? (For Yuan I am including 'Temple' coins or tokens in 'charms' category).

Is there any documentary evidence for such presentation. If not, the two phoenix type seems to be best called a charm? The later dragon and phoenix types are all listed as charms (I agree Hua includes pieces like the Kangxi birthday cash).

charm » 11-June-2006 9:49am

Dear Tony, do you have only two classes of round items with square holes - circulating coins and charms? Where to place palace issues, sacrificial coins etc.? Why temple coins with 4-characters coin legend without any picture should be placed to charms?

charm » 11-June-2006 9:52am

In some publication 4-languages inscription is read as zhi-zhi tong-bao; hence I placed this tpe under Zhi-zhi period. As mentioned BabelStone, it is hard to get good reading of the bottom character for now; as soon as we'll find good version of such reading, we'll move this type into a proper category.

Tony Merson » 12-June-2006 9:06am

Well, SS wishes to call this piece a 'coin', qualifying the name by saying presentation or commemorative, so I thought it was a good idea to provoke a discussion.
The Palace issues are coins but with a restricted circulation area within the Forbidden City we are told.
What are sacrificial coins? Do you mean the lead pieces or money-trees found in tombs?
What were Temple 'coins' used for? There are finds made in statues in Temples. Are they some kind of offering of 'money'.
Charms seems a good description to cover what are not circulating coins.

Tony Merson » 12-June-2006 9:15am

How does Hua read the same four reverse characters on the Zhi Yuan coin? I think he says the left character is in Xi Xia.

For me this coin is not beautiful. The patination is ugly like thick paint and both the estimate and the realised price seem very high.

charm » 12-June-2006 9:49am

Here is the example of the sacrifical coin - http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=31
As mentioned by different sources, temples during the Yuan had granted by permission to cast money - even in the periods when the main state currency were paper notes.

charm » 12-June-2006 9:52am

I believe that Hua doesn't read these characters himself, but quoted the opinion from different publications. The left character is in Tangut script that was an official script in the Western Xia dynasty.