gazali » 1-August-2006 9:27pm

Seems, the number of views, as well as clearly read "...shqnd" at reverse bottom, as well as "Tursun Muhammad Khan" are enough...
The only question is where better to place this coin - in Shaibanid or in Janid category?
It can fall into both ones... Still waiting for more motivated response!

Rasmir » 3-August-2006 3:57pm

I think an origin of this governor is not studied enough and to carry this coin to the certain dynasty will be problematic. Can when there will be more exact given origins of this governor it will be possible to change a category of a coin.
I suggest to create in section Shaybanid an additional subcategory 'Appanage princes' and there to place this coin.

Rasmir » 3-August-2006 3:58pm

Interestingly that dear colleagues on this question think. What opinions can be?

SHER » 29-August-2006 4:26am

Probably to buy this coin?

charm » 2-September-2006 12:10pm

Comments from Steve Album:
I just looked at my manuscript for the 3rd edition, and find that I already have Tursun Muhammad listed as part of a separate dynasty, "Kazakh of Tashkent", to be A-R3008. This was from an earlier report that there is a large group of these coins held in the Uzbekistan Historical Museum.

charm » 2-September-2006 3:00pm

"Kazakh" would not be a dynastic name; title khán suggests that Tursun Muhammad was a member of Čingizid family, most probably Šaybánid branch. So if categories are on dynastic principle arranged, it would be more appropriate to put this khán as appendix of Šaybánids. In the future Šaybanid main category could be reworked according to uluses (realms), since some of lesser rulers proclaimed independence by striking their own coins. Cf. genealogy of Čingizids here.

charm » 3-September-2006 7:19pm

We alrady have non-dynastic titles of subcategories, for example, "Amirs of ...". But you are correct, it worth to think on this subject in further.
BW, I'm not sure that "khan" is always equal to "Chingizid".

gazali » 4-September-2006 9:36am

As far as I know, in Russian historical literature "Kazakh khans of Tashkent" is quite firm and often used word-combination. So, if call this category in this way, I guess the misunderstanding of "Kazakh" as the dynasty name or title will disappear.

charm » 4-September-2006 9:59am

Dear gazali, to which branch of Čingizids these Kazakh kháns belonged?

gazali » 4-September-2006 10:54am

Well, I share point of view they were a separate branch of Shaibanids, (as you mentioned above) who were descendant of Juchi. So I agree with you that the category has to be put into Shaibanids. My suggestion was to add "khans" word to avoid thinking it was the independent dynasty...

gazali » 4-September-2006 10:57am

BTW, dear Vladimir, if you read Russian, as I noticed, here is an interesting historical source:
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus9/Curas/pred4.htm

charm » 4-September-2006 11:01am

Thank you!

gazali » 4-September-2006 2:19pm

Not at all! Always interesting to keep a check on your postings!

charm » 4-September-2006 7:24pm

Highly interesting reading - all 5 parts - recommended to those who are interested in a history of Central Asia including Eastern Turkistán!
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus9/Curas/pred1.htm
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus9/Curas/pred2.htm
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus9/Curas/pred3.htm
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus9/Curas/pred5.htm

gazali » 4-September-2006 8:06pm

To SIM - sorry, this coin is not for sale.

SHER » 7-September-2006 6:01am

Dear gazali,this coin known enough, I saw them much. Recently you in have sold such coins, can and not knowing about it. There is more rare Kazakh khan!!!
In any case - thanks !

Rasmir » 7-September-2006 7:38pm

Esim?

Rasmir » 8-September-2006 11:51pm

My small collection of coins Tursun-Muhammad Bahadur khan
http://www.rasmircoins.ucoz.ru/photo/19-1

osroes » 10-March-2008 5:20am

I just looked up the article by Boris Kochnev on this type:
“Les relations entre Astrakhanides, khans kazaks et ‘Arabshahides (dernières données numismatiques)”, Cahiers d’Asie Centrale, 3-4 (1997), pp. 157-167.
According to the article, these coins first came to light in a hoard of about 200 tenga found in 1982, 25 of which went to the Uzbekistan Historical Museum. Of those 25 pieces, 22 were of Tursun Muhammad. Kochnev argues very convincingly (based mostly on Mahmud b. Vali) that Tursun Muhammad Khan was fully indepedent when these coins were struck in his name. If anyone wants a copy of this short article I can email it. You can reach me at osroes at yahoo dot com.

Tony Merson » 10-March-2008 9:21pm

Very interesting article, thank you.
Very greedy to publish TWO new coin-issuing authorities and new mints all in one short paper!